Letterboxing USA - Yahoo Groups Archive

Frustrated LB placer questions...

16 messages in this thread | Started on 2003-09-22

Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-22 22:13:02 UTC
Hi fellow letterbox-placers/finders around the country!

I'm starting to grow rather frustrated by a hobby that I had been
really enjoying up til now. This frustration has been stewing for
several months but I just haven't figured out how to adequately
address it without causing an uproar.

Bottom Line: Is anybody else out there in a similar situation? If
so, what are your ideas/recommendations for improving it? Any
comments are greatly appreciated--either directly to me or to the
list.

Problem Background: Over the past several months, I've gone out to
check up on several letterboxes that we'd placed during our
letterboxing adventure or to seek letterboxes that other folks had
placed. Upon finding the letterbox (if it still happened to be
there) we noticed that many were 'carelessly rehidden' if they were
even hidden at all.

When we place letterboxes initially, we attempt to look at the
hiding spot from an animals'/vandals'/poor weather
conditions'/groundskeepers'/gardeners'/other treasure hunters'
perspective before we actually place it. If it looks like the box
will even remotely go missing due to any of these conditions then we
usually decide to plant it elsewhere. Granted you can never predict
these occurrences--but trying to prepare for these in advance seems
to add a little bit of longevity to the lifespan of an average
letterbox. We've even gone so far as to revamp many of our earlier
placed letterboxes by putting them in more camouflaged/watertight
containers. Unfortunately, several of these letterboxes have gone
missing despite these added protective measures.

I'm not sure how to address this subject anymore than we've already
attempted. We include a blurb in the clues about requesting
letterboxers to look discreetly & carefully for the letterbox and to
ensure that it is rehidden out of view of passersby when they are
through. Most of our letterboxes are camouflaged (minus the few
initial ones we placed we haven't yet improved upon over time) but
more & more even the camouflaged ones are walking away these days.
I'm not sure if folks tend to be more 'protective' of other peoples'
letterboxes once they've started placing them themselves or what the
issue is. I know that I personally really started to get
that 'mother hen' feeling when I started finding letterboxes AFTER I
had placed some of my own. Sometimes, I'll come across a letterbox
and really have a sinking feeling about its hiding spot because it
might seem really vulnerable. I try to leave it as well hidden as
possible, but knowing that it might not survive regardless of how
well hidden it is--it's hard to part with it. If that's the case, I
try to contact the placer to let them know it may not last long in
the same hiding spot.

I understand that animals and outdoor conditions
often 'dislodge/nudge' letterboxes from their hiding spots but often
the letterboxes we've come across that were 'haphazardly rehidden'
had had letterboxers visit them either the same day or just a short
time before we visited them so the possibility of outside influences
dislodging them has been rather small. Yes, I've lost several
letterboxes to gardeners, squirrels, rains, vandals, schoolkids who
tore a nurse stump to SHREDS, homeless folks who like to pull bark
off of trees, other treasure hunters, etc--yes, many were just poor
placements. Others, however, are missing because they weren't
rehidden carefully. This is what is sooo frustrating!

I'm not sure how to take measures to attempt to resolve this
problem. Is there anyway to address this in the letterboxing FAQ
since I know that a LOT of new letterboxers don't even know this
message board exists but they often read the FAQ before they set out
to find their first letterbox. Include, for example: a blurb
like 'please don't waste other peoples' precious (not meant to be
boastful just meant in the sense that we're all on this Earth for a
short time to begin with) time/resources/artistic efforts (weak
attempts in my case) by carelessly rehiding letterboxes' (something
to that effect)or a quip about 'the letterboxing gods will rain
havoc upon careless rehiders'--something like that? ;) Especially
finders who don't bother to ensure the little plastic baggies in
which the logbooks are contained are properly sealed. This is a
must for moisture prone areas--even if it doesn't rain the logbooks
seem to act like sponges wicking water out of thin air. Possibly
discuss better hiding techniques (like camouflaging the letterbox in
question by wrapping them with leaves/grass, twigs) before returning
them to their hiding spots. Even, take a little extra time to
really ensure it's well hidden before they depart--like not building
the 'tell-tale letterbox altar' out of adjacent sticks but rather to
recover them so they look natural, casting a little
dirt/leaves/twigs over them so it looks as if nothing were there,
that sort of thing.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this matter. How can we reduce
this problem??? It's a subject that's really starting to frustrate
me--to the point I'm even considering taking time off from the hobby
for a LONG while. Please no flames--this isn't intended to cause an
uproar or to blame anybody--I'm just looking for ideas to help
resolve this problem.

Thanks in advance--

dvn2r ckr

(who hesitantly sends this message with great trepidation for fear
it will be misconstrued--yes, I've written this message many times
before but haven't had the courage to hit 'send' until today--
perhaps I've reached the final straw?) ;)




Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: Sir Balthazar (neovolatile@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-22 23:00:22 UTC
Dear dvn2rckr, et al,

We share your frustration. Since we Googled here mostly go 'boxing in
a group, we do second checks of each other's rehiding the box.

Yes, after you plant a few, you realize how precious they are. Sort
of like having kids, you only realize their worth until you have some
of your own.

If I find a box that I think is poorly hidden, I try to make sure it
has more cover before I leave. I also try to contact the placer and
let them know.

Solution? I am not sure. I think it is VERY worth discussing. And I
sincerely doubt you will draw any flames from anyone on this. Our
boxes and stamps are precious. Let's keep them well hidden.

Taking and leaving only good impressions,
Sir B




RE: [LbNA] Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: Mark Pepe (mjpepe1@comcast.net) | Date: 2003-09-22 19:11:23 UTC-04:00
I, too, have found boxes out in the open and not covered well. We also
try to leave a box more concealed than when we found it.

If anyone has followed Sue & I, they know I go for the "pine needles &
leaves" technique.

We should all be a little more aware of how we LEAVE a box. All of the
excitement is generated around FINDING the box and then we just
haphazardly rehide it. Let's think of the next boxer behind us - what
good is all of this if they are stolen and we cannot share this great
hobby with those after us?!!

Have fun and get out there & box!!!

Mark Pepe
P10 F311 X142
[The Pepe's & the Davidow's]
http://pepeanddavidow.blogspot.com/






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Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-22 23:19:10 UTC
I know you've put a lot of work into your containers. Have any of
the famous rocks letterboxes gone missing yet? I'd love to attempt
making something like those. Have you perfected the 'mixture' yet?
Thanks for your ideas.

dvn2r ckr

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Sir Balthazar"
wrote:
> Dear dvn2rckr, et al,
>
> We share your frustration. Since we Googled here mostly go 'boxing
in
> a group, we do second checks of each other's rehiding the box.
>
> Yes, after you plant a few, you realize how precious they are.
Sort
> of like having kids, you only realize their worth until you have
some
> of your own.
>
> If I find a box that I think is poorly hidden, I try to make sure
it
> has more cover before I leave. I also try to contact the placer
and
> let them know.
>
> Solution? I am not sure. I think it is VERY worth discussing. And
I
> sincerely doubt you will draw any flames from anyone on this. Our
> boxes and stamps are precious. Let's keep them well hidden.
>
> Taking and leaving only good impressions,
> Sir B


Re: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: Mary (RI) (rid25751@ride.ri.net) | Date: 2003-09-22 21:50:39 UTC-04:00
First off, I understand your frustration. (I don't know how to pronounce your name, though...)
----- Original Message -----
From: dvn2rckr
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 6:13 PM
Subject: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...


Hi fellow letterbox-placers/finders around the country!

I'm starting to grow rather frustrated by a hobby that I had been
really enjoying up til now. This frustration has been stewing for
several months but I just haven't figured out how to adequately
address it without causing an uproar.
______________
Well, the first rule of not causing an uproar is not to come off as a pompous patutti. You did well. :-)
__________

Problem Background: Over the past several months, I've gone out to
check up on several letterboxes that we'd placed during our
letterboxing adventure or to seek letterboxes that other folks had
placed. Upon finding the letterbox (if it still happened to be
there) we noticed that many were 'carelessly rehidden' if they were
even hidden at all.
__________
I've seen this! Warrior Woman and I found a series of boxes so exposed that it was a miracle they were still there. The culprit(s)? How do you know? I can't imagine any 'boxer I know leaving them like this. I've yet to meet a single letterboxer that acts callously towards boxes. It had to be random finds by non-boxers who at least weren't destructive or thieves, or animals dragging the boxes out. I rather doubt that anyone, even a brand-newbie, would be leaving boxes around like that. So I don't think that FAQs or threats of letterboxing gods would do any good.
___________
I'm not sure how to address this subject anymore than we've already
attempted. We include a blurb in the clues about requesting
letterboxers to look discreetly & carefully for the letterbox and to ensure that it is rehidden out of view of passersby when they are
through.
_______________
That little blurb might elicit a *duh* from many finders but it doesn't hurt to remind.
___________

Most of our letterboxes are camouflaged (minus the few
initial ones we placed we haven't yet improved upon over time) but
more & more even the camouflaged ones are walking away these days.
I'm not sure if folks tend to be more 'protective' of other peoples' letterboxes once they've started placing them themselves or what the issue is. I know that I personally really started to get that 'mother hen' feeling when I started finding letterboxes AFTER I had placed some of my own.
_________
Not me. I treat them all the same and have from the get-go. And fortunately most finders have been very kind and careful with the one box I had planted up until last month.
_______
Sometimes, I'll come across a letterbox and really have a sinking feeling about its hiding spot because it might seem really vulnerable. I try to leave it as well hidden as possible, but knowing that it might not survive regardless of how well hidden it is--it's hard to part with it. If that's the case, I try to contact the placer to let them know it may not last long in the same hiding spot.
_________________
That's the best you can do, I think, and the best we could all do for each other. What I don't like is when the boxes are moved without the placer's knowledge. My box was taken out of its niche in the rear of a wall and someone put it into the end of the wall. Heaven knows who yanked out all the rocks at the end of the wall. Was it the person who "fixed" my location? Or was it yet another searcher getting frustrated with the box not being where they thought it should be? All I know is that it was *less* concealed and not where the clues said it should be. I was thankful it was all there, unharmed. I shrugged it off because ultimately no real harm was done and my box was there. I haven't had the heartbreak of losing one, other than my HH. BTW, has ANYONE seen my Quahog?
____________

I understand that animals and outdoor conditions often dislodge/nudge' letterboxes from their hiding spots but often
the letterboxes we've come across that were 'haphazardly rehidden'
had had letterboxers visit them either the same day or just a short
time before we visited them so the possibility of outside influences dislodging them has been rather small. Yes, I've lost several
letterboxes to gardeners, squirrels, rains, vandals, schoolkids who
tore a nurse stump to SHREDS, homeless folks who like to pull bark
off of trees, other treasure hunters, etc--yes, many were just poor
placements. Others, however, are missing because they weren't
rehidden carefully.
________
How do you really know for sure?
________


I'd love to hear your thoughts on this matter. How can we reduce
this problem??? It's a subject that's really starting to frustrate
me--to the point I'm even considering taking time off from the hobby for a LONG while.
________
Maybe just a little break is all you need. I'd hate to see you just quit.
________
Please no flames--this isn't intended to cause an
uproar or to blame anybody--I'm just looking for ideas to help
resolve this problem.
________
I swear, I just keep it for protection! I wasn't going to use it! It's just to scare away the bad guys... But, just say the word and I'll positively fry any critter uncovering your boxes.
Alas, I don't think I can offer any more ideas than you have come up with yourself. "Please re-hide CAREFULLY" should really be all that's necessary if it's not animals leaving things out in the open.
__________

Thanks in advance--

dvn2r ckr

(who hesitantly sends this message with great trepidation for fear
it will be misconstrued--yes, I've written this message many times
before but haven't had the courage to hit 'send' until today--
perhaps I've reached the final straw?) ;)
__________
Maybe you are just getting more comfortable with us.
__________
Bottom Line: Is anybody else out there in a similar situation? If
so, what are your ideas/recommendations for improving it? Any
comments are greatly appreciated--either directly to me or to the
list.
______________
I just thought the bottom line should be at the bottom.

This _is_ where you really meant to put it, right?
Mary (RI)
...who secretly wishes for some critter to help her find the ellusive Palindromic Harmony.




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Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: sileagle1 (sileagle@alltel.net) | Date: 2003-09-23 02:22:34 UTC
I sympathize with your frustration but don't have any
solution. I'm afraid that discussing it on this talklist
is like "preaching to the choir" and won't reach the
main offenders. Other than saying on your clues to
"replace as found", I'm not sure what else you can do.
My concern and frustration goes beyond people not
re-hiding letterboxes well. My main frustration
is that no matter how well you hide a box and no matter
how well finders replace it, that box will eventually
turn up missing and become a "litterbox". When I first
started this hobby I had grandiose plans of placing
letterboxes that would be around long after I'm gone.
Now I realize I will be lucky if they make it a few years.
I've started making more microboxes in an attempt to reduce
the impact on the environment, but even these can be found
by animals or non-letterboxers. So far I have dutifully
replaced all my boxes that have gone missing if I can
get to them easily. Other boxes that are virtual orphans
I have turned into "online" boxes. This is a box that
can still be "found" by visiting the site where the box
used to be and then downloading a copy of the stamp image
from my clue page. I may start doing this for all my
boxes that turn up missing. Might not be as much fun
for the finder, but it still counts as a find and they
still get a stamp image for their logbook. They can even
write comments on my webpage logbook instead of a real logbook
in the letterbox. Anyway, that is my "solution".

Another alternative is to become an Ecoscavenger:

http://www.ecoscavenger.com/

Wish I had a better solution.
Silver Eagle


Re: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 02:25:26 UTC
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Mary \(RI\)"
wrote:
> First off, I understand your frustration. (I don't know how to
pronounce your name, though...)

-->>Adventure Seeker
(long story, difficult to explain, hard to decypher, too late to
change) Oh, my latest comments are prefaced with a "-->>" ;)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dvn2rckr
> To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 6:13 PM
> Subject: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...
> Problem Background: Over the past several months, I've gone
out
> to check up on several letterboxes that we'd placed during our
> letterboxing adventure or to seek letterboxes that other folks
had
> placed. Upon finding the letterbox (if it still happened to be
> there) we noticed that many were 'carelessly rehidden' if they
were
> even hidden at all.
> __________
> I've seen this! Warrior Woman and I found a series of boxes so
exposed that it was a miracle they were still there. The culprit
(s)? How do you know? I can't imagine any 'boxer I know leaving
them like this. I've yet to meet a single letterboxer that acts
callously towards boxes. It had to be random finds by non-boxers
who at least weren't destructive or thieves, or animals dragging the
boxes out. I rather doubt that anyone, even a brand-newbie, would
be leaving boxes around like that. So I don't think that FAQs or
threats of letterboxing gods would do any good.

-->>I'm glad your box didn't go missing. I've had many
similar 'close calls' with boxes but fortunately either I or some
other courteous boxer was able to check up on it and rescue it
before its impending doom. As for the most recent experience, the
previous finders had only been there hours before, the clue offered
very specific and detailed hiding spot instructions, yet it was left
there totally exposed in a precarious spot not even remotely close
to what the clues said.

I haven't had the heartbreak of losing one, other than my HH. BTW,
has ANYONE seen my Quahog?

-->>I've lost a couple dozen now for various reasons. A few have a
tendency to go missing almost immediately after I get a comment that
somebody recently found it. That's mostly the info I'm going off
of. I haven't heard from over 10 HHs we've launched over the past
year & a half. Sadly, I consider most of them dead or buried. :(
The others I imagine are hanging out in those very rarely checked
letterboxes out there. I've only received about 5 updates of any of
the hitchhikers I've ever planted--those were mostly from people
with whom I routinely exchange messages. I gather this is the
reason that many people aren't launching hitchhikers all that often
anymore. I've launched 1 in the past 6 months and that was only
because it was a very special location where we were and I thought
it would be neat to see where it would travel next after that locale.

> I understand that animals and outdoor conditions often
dislodge/nudge' letterboxes from their hiding spots but often
> the letterboxes we've come across that were 'haphazardly
rehidden'
> had had letterboxers visit them either the same day or just a
short
> time before we visited them so the possibility of outside
influences dislodging them has been rather small. Yes, I've lost
several
> letterboxes to gardeners, squirrels, rains, vandals, schoolkids
who
> tore a nurse stump to SHREDS, homeless folks who like to pull
bark
> off of trees, other treasure hunters, etc--yes, many were just
poor
> placements. Others, however, are missing because they weren't
> rehidden carefully.
> ________
> How do you really know for sure?

Again, refer to above example, we checked on a box fairly early in
the day, noting in the logbook that other finders had only just
earlier been there (unless they box in the dark), the LB was totally
exposed, not in the hiding spot even though the directions in the
clues were rather explicit! This is just one example of many, many,
many occasions where I've experienced this.

> ________
>
>
> I'd love to hear your thoughts on this matter. How can we
reduce
> this problem??? It's a subject that's really starting to
frustrate
> me--to the point I'm even considering taking time off from the
hobby for a LONG while.
> ________
> Maybe just a little break is all you need. I'd hate to see you
just quit.

-->>Boxes continue to disappear despite efforts to better
hide/camouflage them and I'm deciding to not replace many of them.

> Alas, I don't think I can offer any more ideas than you have
come up with yourself. "Please re-hide CAREFULLY" should really be
all that's necessary if it's not animals leaving things out in the
open.

-->>Including anything in the clue sheet doesn't seem to help.
Discussing it on the message board isn't working either as many area
letterboxers aren't active on this site--although they're quite
active in the region. That's why I think our only shot at
really 'teaching' anybody to be careful with rehiding boxes is
addressing it in some manner in a FAQ or other area where new folks
go first to learn about letterboxing before they venture out for
their first find.
> __________
>
> Thanks in advance--
>
> dvn2r ckr
>
__________
> Bottom Line: Is anybody else out there in a similar situation?
If
> so, what are your ideas/recommendations for improving it? Any
> comments are greatly appreciated--either directly to me or to
the
> list.
> ______________
> I just thought the bottom line should be at the bottom.
>
> This _is_ where you really meant to put it, right?
> Mary (RI)
> ...who secretly wishes for some critter to help her find the
ellusive Palindromic Harmony.


I was taught Bottom Line Up Front: BLUF! ;)

Thanks for your insightful comments. Just looking for ideas out
there. One thing I've started to do is tether my letterboxes to the
hiding spots--using a very small tether that won't damage the plants
or the item around which it is tethered nor will it injure any
animals that may come upon it (I'm mostly referring to 35 mm film
canister sized letterboxes here). I figure the tether would
indicate where the 'exact intended' hiding spot is.

I appreciate any other ideas you may have!

Thanks & see you on the trails--dvn2r ckr


Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 02:53:37 UTC
Hey, Sileagle--great comments. One thing I try to do to reduce the
impact our hobby has on the environment (besides carefully treading
where ever we are letterboxing) is to use recycled containers for my
letterbox containers. From film canisters to tupperware rescued
from St Vincent de Paul, Goodwill, Salvation Army to VHS Cassette
Cases from the Boeing Surplus Yard (thank you Trial N Error for the
info on that bargain of a lifetime!!!), I figure I'm saving a little
bit of space in area dumps. I also don't want to detract from an
individual's outdoors experience by seeing some 'fluorescent'
tupperware sticking up out of the ground--so I've really tried to
camouflage my letterboxes lately so as not to ruin somebody's
unpolluted date with nature. ;) Yes, we're tired of stumbling
across dumped tires/wheels, fridges, you name it out there on the
trails...

Like Steve of Team Rayvenhaus said in a previous message, we just
need to take LOADS of trash out with us on our hunts and if you ever
come across other hikers/outdoor adventurers that witness you doing
it, it might be a great time to tell them about letterboxing!

Thanks for your comments. We'll definitely look into the
ecoscavenge concept. I've hidden several 'offset' letterboxes
already that, if placed where I'd originally intended, they wouldn't
be welcomed by the resident officials. So, I've drafted clues that
require you to visit an area then after solving some problems there,
it leads you to the hiding spot in another park in another area
where you find the letterbox.

dvn2r ckr


Re: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: NeverEnuff (neverenuff1969@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 13:56:00 UTC
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Mary (RI) wrote:
First off, I understand your frustration. (I don't know how to
pronounce your name, though...)

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "dvn2rckr" wrote:
-->>Adventure Seeker
(long story, difficult to explain, hard to decypher, too late to
change) Oh, my latest comments are prefaced with a "-->>" ;)


I always thought it was something like Devon2Rocker or something. I
had no idea what that could have meant though. LOL Thanks for
explaining it and ending my confusion. :)

NeverEnuff



Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: Dog Scouts Troop (DogScouts@hotmail.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 10:29:23 UTC-04:00
I always try to get rocks on top of my boxes, or find a way to wedge them
into their hiding spot to discourage critters, which seem to be the most
common culprit around here (as evidenced by the teeth marks - or we have
very hungry boxers!). For a few of my microboxes, I have created a small
depression (the size of the container) in the ground and laid a rock on top.
The small depression allows the rock to sit flush with the ground and a few
leaves tossed on top makes them blend right in. For areas without a lot of
rocks, I do this inside a tree stump or at the base of a tree (on the back
side away from the trail) where a single rock covered by natural debris
wouldn't draw attention. It seems to work really well. The critters can't
get to them, they can be placed right at the trail's edge (as long as it
blends in with the surroundings-other rocks around) and they aren't likely
to get washed away. I don't know how well it would work for regular size
boxes though, the depression would just have to be larger.

Regarding what you posted below: Would the tether force the boxer to stamp
in at the hiding spot? Wouldn't that draw attention to it if a non-boxer
came by? Just curious.

Scoutdogs

>
> Thanks for your insightful comments. Just looking for ideas out
> there. One thing I've started to do is tether my letterboxes to the
> hiding spots--using a very small tether that won't damage the plants
> or the item around which it is tethered nor will it injure any
> animals that may come upon it (I'm mostly referring to 35 mm film
> canister sized letterboxes here). I figure the tether would
> indicate where the 'exact intended' hiding spot is.

Re: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: Steve S. (kerjin@myndworx.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 08:46:54 UTC-07:00
*This message was transferred with a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) Pro*


Thanks for bringing this up dvn2rckr, it is something that has weighed on my
mind, specifically since we went and walked the Snow Dogs series yesterday,
finding 2 missing, which, effectively breaks the ability to find the others,
as they go from one to the others, though I am sure that many will be able
to continue on until I am able to recarve them. These are our first missing
boxes that we've created.

In walking the series yesterday, I noticed one thing... Most of the boxes
were in less than desirable hiding positions.. One was even lying in the
trail, open. My opinion? Teenagers were i the forest, doing what teenagers
do and they stumbled across the boxes, and, apparently can't read the
requested glued into each box as to what it is and to please replace it. I
think that most Letterboxers tend to take care of things... Both the
environment and the hidden box itself... I tend to believe that the problems
we encounter is simply random chance... Someone saw us replace the box and
being curious, they investigated and left it less than hidden when they
departed, or, teens stumbled across them whilst doing whatever it is
teenagers do in the woods, and, having not been taught respect for
themselves, let alone other peoples property. Last but not least, we have
the environment itself, the weather and the critters.

All of this stacks the deck against us. I thought of this before I started
on the hobby and I decided that as long as I could afford it, I would carve
my boxes and I would plant them and I would replace them as needed. I don't
like is, specially when I see human remnants on the trail in the vicinity of
the recently lost letterbox.

I look at it this way..... Personally, I'm not one to get upset over the
lost letterbox. I'll just re-create it, better than it was before as my
carving ability improves with each one I do. The careless hiding though....
That bothers me. That careless disregard for the basics of the 'game' lead
me to believe that some are doing this simply for the bragging rights. And,
in my NOT so humble opinion, that's the wrong reason.

We're at a turning point here folks. See, I know the 'No rules' part of
letterboxing, but that anarchy is what is causing the growing pains. I'm
not advocating that we detail the simplest manner, from how a booklet must
be made, to what stamps are acceptable. I am advocating that we teach by
example. That we follow the golden rule and that we teach our children to be
different than the masses.

Are we going to know if the last person to visit our letterbox hid it well
enough or not? Nope. We'll never know. But, by constantly pointing everyone
to the FAQ's, by continuing to educate and teach, by doing it better
ourselves, we can teach by example and by that nature, we can set down, not
rules, but what's acceptable behaviors on the trail and in search of the
boxes.

Lastly, to dvnr2ckr, whom I look up to, please don't get discouraged, yours
are some of the most enjoyable boxes we have had the pleasure of searching
out and those of us in the PNW would be hard pressed to have as much fun as
we do, it you stopped placing/replacing boxes here. And that goes for every
single letterboxer out there. Without the placers, the finders have no
where to go, nothing to find. I personally want to thank every single person
that has taken the plunge to create something and to place it. Without you,
we'd (Team Rayvenhaus) would be merely hiking these trails, and, as
wonderful as that can be and is, the added pleasure of seeking something,
working the 'problem' through and deciphering the clues, only makes the
journey that much more sweet.

Let me share this last thought..........

Far to many people feel that the goal is the destination, the prize. I say
it is not. I say that, perhaps, it is the journey that matters. It's not the
getting there that matters as much as how you arrived there. So, to us,
it's not the box at the end of the hike, the stamp to add to the book,
though those are part and parcel of what we do, it is, to us, a means to
educate our children in nature. So show them the wonder of the planet that
sustains us and the circle of life. The letterbox at the end, the goal, is
only a sweet victory because my children got to see a nest full of baby
robins, an eagle soaring majestically, a Doe and 2 fawns hidden in the
thicket, the caterpillar building his cocoon, the salmon fighting their way
upstream to spawn and explaining to them what spawning is. (grin)

That's what counts to us. So, to every single person who has or will plant a
letterbox and checks them and hides them yet again, who replaces the ones
that the vandals destroyed, I say thank you more than mere words can
express. Thank you for showing me a way to get my children interested in
nature and away from the boob tube.

Thank you!

Steve of Rayvenhaus
The PNWLb Website - http://www.myndworx.com
(Whose sig can be seen at http://www.myndworx.com/rayvenhaus )



Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 16:12:19 UTC
--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "Dog Scouts Troop"
wrote:
Would the tether force the boxer to stamp
> in at the hiding spot? Wouldn't that draw attention to it if a non-
boxer
> came by? Just curious.
>
> Scoutdogs


Cool ideas about indenting the small containers. I haven't tried
that with the film canisters yet. May do so in the future. Thanks!

As for the tethers, the letterboxes are connected to the tethers via
a detachable metal ring. The letterboxer locates the letterbox,
carefully opens the ring to release the letterbox, takes it to
another location to stamp in and then carefully reattaches it to the
waiting tether. The tether is thin gauge wire (used for hanging
picture frames from picture railing--ok, we live in a VERY OLD
house) and is carefully placed around the item to leave just a tiny
1-2 inch gap to allow for reattaching it. As I'm an avid gardener,
I've very cautious in avoiding injury to whatever I'm placing a
tether on--the container is usually a 35 mm film canister or a
tupperware hamburger patty container--so it's not that large and not
very heavy, either. So far, I've tethered a box to a fern and
another to a very secure/stable tree root from a dead log. We'll
see how long they last--knock on wood! ;)

I've also resorted to using Christmas tree ornament type letterboxes-
-again, usually 35 mm film canisters that I created a sort of hook
either with the thin gauge wire or large paperclips--that I wrap
with electrical tape. If you make the 'hook' large enough, the
letterboxes usually don't get dislodged from their hiding spots
during high winds or heavy rains (haven't experienced any hurricanes
yet so I'm not sure how they'll fare then).

It's funny you mention tree stumps--I've lost about 5 letterboxes to
rotting tree stumps. They somehow get swallowed up into the tree's
belly! I've even lost a letterbox to a tree stump turned into a
seat at a local park. Talk about funny LB disappearance stories.
More along that line--I placed a letterbox awhile back in a hole in
a tree fairly high up in the tree. Future letterboxers kept
reporting that they'd find it on the ground below the tree. I'd
check on it, put it back in its hole and still get similar reports.
Well, eventually I checked it again, it had tiny bite marks on its
lid and I realized I had been fighting a squirrel! Needless to say,
I lost the fight, moved the box to another location and
unfortunately, it was swallowed by the tree stump at its new
location. Craziness! So, now I'm much more cautious about tree
stumps & old logs.

You know, the funny hiding places I've had the most success with
lately have been under large bushy ferns! As long as you use dark
containers (black/brown VHS cassette cases or disk cases seem to
work best) they seem to fare quite well!

Again, thanks for your ideas!

dvn2r ckr


Re: [LbNA] Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 16:32:56 UTC
Wow! Blushing...thanks for such kind words, Team Rayvenhaus.

Yes, it's demoralizing when a box goes missing--but understandable.
The thing that gets my goat is when letterboxers are careless in
rehiding the box. I totally understand the other reasons for boxes
disappearing--it's just careful rehiding may really reduce the
frequency that they go missing or are accidentally stumbled upon.

Sorry to hear about some of the Snow Dogs escaping. Yes, I ran
across many interesting & gross things in the park there--to include
possibly somebody's home--blanket, clothing, shoes & all? We can
only do so much to ensure our surroundings are maintained--I applaud
everybody who attempts to make a dent in the problem!

Ditto--extending thanks to all letterbox placers out there! What an
incredible wild ride this has been--leading us to so many incredible
and unknown hidden treasures around the country--and learning so
much in the process! I also laud the careful and courteous
letterboxers out there--keep up the great work!

dvn2r ckr


Re: [LbNA] Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: (cadenza74@earthlink.net) | Date: 2003-09-23 13:11:38 UTC-06:00
understand the frustration. Don't you dare give up! I enjoy your
contribution to our community way to much!

One thing that I have found in my own letterboxing quests is that a box
often looks very well hidden to me, but when I get up to go and see it from
a different angle, it is quite exposed. This is especially prone to
happening when I am hiding under large rocks-it may be hidden on the finding
side, but I don't realize there is a gap on the far side.

I have taken to walking around a plant site to see if I can see the box
differently from other angles before I leave. I think it is good advice for
any to follow.

Cadenza

[LbNA] Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: dvn2rckr (dvn2rckr@yahoo.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 19:26:59 UTC
Cadenza--thanks for your comments. Great advice!

I'm toying with the idea of placing letterboxes in 'canvas' sleeves
so as to better camouflage them. I'll try to explore an Army Navy
Surplus store sometime and see if there are any old cheap waterproof
tents/camo nets/other type of canvas materials that could easily be
used to create a sleeve (much like taking a piece of cardboard,
folding it in half and stapling three sides)--wonder if that would
help? Has anybody tried anything like this before? Even just
getting scraps of an old camo net that you could wrap around your
box and then insert random organic materials into the netting so it
looks more natural might work, huh?

dvn2r ckr




Re: Frustrated LB placer questions...

From: catbead1 (libby@twcny.rr.com) | Date: 2003-09-23 21:44:01 UTC
This gave me some ideas:


> Cool ideas about indenting the small containers.

I've lifted rocks out of the ground and put micro-boxes in it's place.
-----

The micro-boxes I use are 50ML centrifuge tubes that withstand boiling
water and -70F, so as long as I place heavy stones on top to keep the
tube from washing away I think it should be OK.
-------

> As for the tethers, the letterboxes are connected to the tethers via
> a detachable metal ring. The letterboxer locates the letterbox,
> carefully opens the ring to release the letterbox, takes it to
> another location to stamp in and then carefully reattaches it to the
> waiting tether.

You really are depending on people finding the box to be gentle.
------
> The tether is thin gauge wire (used for hanging
> picture frames from picture railing--ok, we live in a VERY OLD
> house)

You could use wire made for bead stringing such as "Soft Flex" or
other brand names which has 49 stainless steel wires twisted and
encased in a thin plastic sheath. Eventually the stuff wears out but
it is strong and is more protected than picture wire because of the
plastic. It or something similar is avaible in Michaels or other
crafts stores or online at places like www.jsritter.com under: Tools &
Equipment > Bead Stringing Supplies. This can be tied in a knot,
although if you use a square knot be sure to use one extra knot
otherwise it will slip off.

catbead